What is a 'Molosser'?

[Spike]

Here is where we will discuss exactly what it means to be a Molosser dog breed. I have noticed that there are mixed ideas or opinions on this topic.

[Spike]

Mar 18, 2022 5:51:20 GMT Spike said:

470 — MOLOSSER BREEDS EVOKE OLD WORLD CHARACTERISTICS

puredogtalk.com/captivate-podcast/470-molosser-breeds-evoke-old-world-characteristics/

Denise Flaim, creator of Modern Molosser, Rhodesian Ridgeback breeder and AKC judge, joins host Laura Reeves to share a passionate understanding of the Molosser breeds.

“The name (molosser) comes from ancient Greece….,” Flaim said. “There was a dog called the Mollsus dog. It was reputed to be very large in size. Equally as ferocious. All of the ancient scribes and historians wrote about this dog. The Romans acquired them, legend has it, and they fought in the colosseum and they were used as war dogs.

“What it’s come to mean today is a group of dogs, some of them related, some not, or only distantly, that have certain physical characteristics: great bone for their size, thick skin, oftentimes wrinkled, but not always. A role that involved being a guardian of people or property or sometimes livestock. Imposing large heads, oftentimes with muzzles that are slightly shorter than the length of skull but not always. So that’s kind of the phenotype of the molosser.

“They are sort of a group of breeds that consider themselves part of this family. That list would include Mastiff, Bullmastiff, Dogue de Bordeaux, Neopolitan Mastiff, Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Boerbel etc.

“I’m always very impressed by the molosser breeders, because they’re hard to breed. Many of them of are of a size and scope in terms of bone and substance that’s very hard to achieve. Many of them are head breeds. Because their heads and certain aspects of their bodies, the differential between one breed and another is minimal.

“So, for example, Neopolitan Mastiffs and Cane Corsos, head planes are incredibly important. Neo’s are parallel planes and Cane Corsos are convergent. If you have a Corso with parallel planes, you’re starting to go down the slippery slope of losing type. So, in those two breeds, the fine points are super important because there’s so much inter-relation.

“There used to be this old wives’ tale, that the Tibetan Mastiff was the mother of all mastiff breeds. Now we know from genetic research that every region of the world, mastiffs types evolved separately. Sighthound archetypes and mastiff archetypes pop up in every culture.

“There is an incredible lack of respect for many of these breeds. As usual, people make fun of things they don’t understand. Across the ocean, the ability to judge and breed Neopolitan Mastiffs is considered the height of connoisseurship in dogs.

“In America our idiom is one of loftiness and verticality and expansion. The Neopolitan Mastiff is an old-world breed. The Neo is opera, it’s an aria, it’s primal, it’s about all those earthy emotions. It’s a completely different way to look at the breed.

“Go look at (Neopolitan Mastiffs) again through the prism of ‘this is an old-world breed.’ Re-calibrate yourself. The dog shouldn’t adjust to you and your preferences. You should adjust to the dog, its history, culture and its type.

“Every breed is its own country, with its own language, its own traditions, its own culture … What you don’t wanna do is be like the stereotypical American tourist with the socks and sandals and the guidebook clenched in your hand with the real superficial understanding of whatever breed you’re bumping into.”

A true Molosser ( IMO ) is any dog with Molossus bloodline ( DNA ) some more than others. Then there are unrelated dogs or dogs with very little Molosser bloodline who are classed as Molosser type dogs due to certain Molosser characteristics such as a broad muscular build, heavy bones, short muzzle, and wrinkles.

[Spike]

Jan 14, 2022 18:06:44 GMT Spike said:

Here, I am going to list the normal weights of the various bulldog/Molosser breeds - males only.
( I did not list the long-haired mastiffs )

*Small Molosser Breeds: ( below 70 pounds )

1- Pug - 18 to 20 pounds. ( probably 100% ).
2- French Bulldog - 12 to 25 pounds. ( probably 100% ).
3- Boston Terrier - 15 to 25 pounds. ( roughly 50% ).
4- Miniature Bull Terrier - 20 to 35 pounds. ( roughly 50% ).
5- Staffordshire Bull Terrier - 28 to 38 pounds. ( roughly 50% ).
6- Chinese Shar-Pei - 35 to 44 pounds. ( less than 50% ).
7- Miniature Boxer - 25 to 55 pounds. ( 100% ).
8- English Bulldog - 40 to 50 pounds. ( 100% ).
9- Thai Ridgeback - 35 to 55 pounds. ( less than 50% ).
10- Chongqing Dog - 44 to 54 pounds. ( possibly 50% ).
11- Continental Bulldog - 55 to 66 pounds. ( 100% ).
_______________________________________________________

*Medium-Small Breed: American Bully.

_______________________________________________________

*Medium Molosser Breeds: ( 70 - 100 pounds )

1- American Staffordshire Terrier - 40 to 70 pounds. ( roughly 50% ).
2- Valley Bulldog - 40 to 70 pounds. ( 100% ).
3- Bull Terrier - 50 to 70 pounds. ( roughly 50% ).
4- American Pit Bull Terrier - 55 to 70 pounds. ( roughly 50% ).
5- Victorian Bulldog - 55 to 75 pounds. ( 100% ).
6- Australian Bulldog - 60 to 78 pounds. ( 100% ).
7- Boxer - 65 to 80 pounds. ( 100% ).
8- Black Mouth Cur - 45 to 100 pounds. ( probably less than 50% ).
9- Rhodesian Ridgeback - 80 pounds. ( less than 50% ).
10- Ca de Bou - 77 to 84 pounds. ( probably 100% ).
11- Banter Bulldogge - 50 to 85 pounds. ( 100% ).
12- Serrano Bulldog - 68 to 88 pounds. ( 100% ).
13- Alano Español - 75 to 88 pounds. ( 100% ).
14- Alapaha Blue-Blood Bulldog - 50 to 90 pounds. ( 100% ).
15- Campiero Bulldog - 79 to 93 pounds. ( 100% ).
16- Doberman - 88 to 99 pounds. ( less than 50% ).
17- Catahoula Bulldog - 75 to 100 pounds. ( 50% ).
18- Dogo Argentino - 80 to 100 pounds. ( 100% ).
19- American Bulldog ( Scott type ) - 80 to 100 pounds. ( 100% ).
______________________________________________________

*Large Molosser Breeds: ( 100+ pounds )

1- Bull Arab - 66 to 110 pounds. ( less than 50% ).
2- Cane Corso - 110 pounds. ( 100% ).
3- American bull Molosser - 85 to 115 pounds. ( over 50% ).
4- American bulldog ( Johnson type ) - 90-120 lbs. ( 100% ).
5- Olde English Bulldogge - 65 to 130 pounds. ( 100% ).
6- Gull Dong - 90 to 140 pounds. ( less than 50% ).
7- Canis Panther - 120 to 140 pounds. ( less than 50% ).
8- Antebellum Bulldog - 80 to 150 pounds. ( 100% ).
9- Rottweiler - 110 to 130 pounds. ( possibly 50% ).
10- Bullmastiff - 110 to 130 pounds. ( 100% ).
11- Perro de Presa Canario - 130 pounds. ( 100% ).
12- Spanish Mastiff - 110 to 150 pounds. ( 100% ).
13- Dogue de Bordeaux - 110 to 150 pounds. ( 100% ).
14- Neapolitan Mastiff - 110 to 150 pounds. ( 100% ).
15- Serbian Defense Dog - 120 to 150 pounds. ( roughly 50% ).
16- Great Dane - 120 to 180 pounds. ( roughly 50% ).
17- Fila Brasileiro - 140 to 180 pounds. ( roughly 75% ).
18- Tosa Inu - 130 to 200 pounds. ( roughly 50% ).
19- Boerboel - 150 to 200 pounds. ( 100% ).
20- Bully Kutta - 150 to 200 pounds. ( less than 50% ).
21- American Mastiff - 160 to 200 pounds. ( 100% ).
22- English Mastiff - 150 to 250 pounds. ( 100% ).
23- American Molossus - 200 to 250 pounds. ( 100% ).
24- Ancient Molossus - 200 to 300 pounds. ( extinct - weight estimated ) -( 100% of course - all others derived from this dog ).

Pure Molosser breeds and mixed Molosser breeds - percentage of Molosser bloodline given.

[Spike]

What is a Molosser Dog?

puppytoob.com/what-is-a-molosser-dog/

Domestication has had a huge impact on the human experience. For example, most of the meat that we eat still comes from a small number of captive-bred species. Similarly, while we use machines to power our production processes in the present time, we were reliant on draft animals as a critical source of labor for a considerable part of our pre-modern existence. However, it is important to note that just because an animal became domesticated, that didn’t mean that it spread throughout human-controlled territories in an instant. Instead, groups of humans had to acquire said animals from their neighbors, which in turn, made it possible for their neighbors to acquire those same animals from them. Something that could make for a very slow spread, particularly since not every group of human would have had both the means and the interest in every single domesticated species.

As such, it makes sense for people to wonder how far various domesticated species had spread in historical times. However, it is interesting to note that dogs were domesticated between 18,800 and 32,100 years ago, which was more than enough for them to have spread throughout human-controlled territories by historical times. One excellent example would be the existence of Pre-Columbian dogs, which was possible because the ancestors of the indigenous peoples of the Americas brought their canine companions with them when they crossed the land-bridge connecting Siberia and Alaska around 11,500 years ago.

Thanks to this, dogs were everywhere in the ancient world. For example, 3300 BC Uruk has provided us with the depiction of a dog wearing a dog collar, which possesses a rather remarkable resemblance to the modern Saluki. Similarly, while the ancient Egyptians are justly famous for their love of cats, they were also quite fond of their canine companions. Something that can be seen in their funerary practices for said animals, which are critical because ancient Egyptian religion was so focused upon the afterlife as well as ensuring one’s place in the afterlife. Under these circumstances, it should come as no surprise to learn that dogs were also extremely important in the ancient Greek world.

[Spike]

What Was the Molosser? - continued:

It is very common for people to view the ancient Greeks as one people because we take nation-states for granted. However, it is important to note that the ancient Greeks were divided up into numerous groups that claimed a common heritage but tended to be very protective of their independence. Moreover, while the ancient Greeks were strongly associated with the concept of the classical polis, there were plenty of ancient Greeks who didn’t fit into that mold. One excellent example would be the Molossians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians), who would be the namesake of the Molosser.

For those who are curious, the Molossians were a collection of ancient Greek tribes that lived in the region of Epirus, which was the northwest portion of ancient Greece. There are some experts who question whether they were ancient Greeks or ancient non-Greeks who embraced ancient Greek culture. However, there are certain pieces of evidence that support the idea that the Molossians were indeed ancient Greeks. For example, they and their neighbors were permitted to send sacred envoys to the city of Epidaurus, which was important because the ancient Greeks took the question of Greek-ness very seriously. Similarly, the Molossians controlled the oracle of Dodona, which was one of the most sacred sites of ancient Greek religion. On top of this, the Molossians played up their ancestors in the same way as their counterparts throughout the ancient Greek world. After all, their name comes from Molossus, who was the supposed grandson of Achilles from the Trojan War. As such, the Molossians were very much interwoven in the common heritage of the ancient Greeks. Still, while they were considered to be ancient Greeks by other ancient Greeks, they were seen in a semi-barbaric light because of their position on the periphery.

In any case, the Molossians tend to be remembered for a couple of things. One would be their royal family, which eventually presided over the whole of the region of Epirus. This is because of two individuals. First, Alexander the Great’s mother Olympias was a Molossian princess, which is how the famous conqueror could claim to have been descended from Achilles. Second, Alexander’s second cousin once removed Pyrrhus was a notable general in his own right but tends to be best-known for having won a pair of victories so ruinous that he could proceed no longer, thus resulting in the phrase “Pyrrhic victory.” Two, the Molossians are remembered for their dogs, which were famous for their size as well as their ferocity. Thanks to this, Molossers saw extensive use as guard dogs, watch dogs, and hunting dogs, so much so that they were the stereotypical watch dog of the Greco-Roman world. Keen-eyed individuals might notice that depictions of Cerberus sometimes resemble a Molosser, though to be fair, Cerberus’s parentage meant that he wasn’t a dog so much as a dog-shaped monster.

Are Molossers Still Around?
Molossers are no longer around. The ancients didn’t have dog breeds in the same way that we do, so Molossers aren’t quite what interested individuals might imagine if they are used to thinking of dogs in terms of dog breeds. For that matter, even if the ancients did have dog breeds, there is no guarantee that Molossers would have made it through the transitional period between late antiquity and the early medieval era intact. Never mind the time since. However, the popularity of the Molosser means that it is often speculated that it is the ancestor of a wide range of dog breeds that can be found in the present time. Indeed, it is sometimes said that every single European mastiff can claim descent from these dogs, though that is a rather bold claim based on neither particularly plentiful nor particularly strong evidence. Still, that perception has set in, with the result that Molosser is sometimes used as a term for a wide range of dog breeds that are thought to have been descended from them.

Generally speaking, these dogs are used as either guard dogs or watch dogs. However, the changing nature of dogs means that this is by no means guaranteed to be the case, as shown by how American Bulldogs are considered to be Molossers. Some of the other Molossers are very expected names such as Pit Bulls, English Bulldogs, and French Bulldogs. Others are less so, with an excellent example being the Golden Retriever. On top of this, there are also some Molossers that seem very unlikely to be descended from their ancient namesakes thanks to their geographical origins, as shown by the Chinese Shar-Pei and the Korean Dosa Mastiff. Interested individuals should know that different organizations can have very different definitions for what is and isn’t a Molosser, which makes sense because it is such an inexact term when used in a modern context.